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January 27, 2007

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the burningman

Chanders – Speaking of Indymedia, the non-presence of DC Indymedia and general lack of participation around the protests was startling. This is no criticism of the people who did contribute some, but wow!

Regarding the snark: Knock yourself out. My honest response is that the dismissal of this campaign as a simple "play" is a mistake. It says more about where your head is at than the object of your derision.

The caveat I added about carping on UFPJ applies here as well.

Bush has plainly said he could give fuck all about the will of the people, and is right now expanding the war to Somalia and Iran. Provoked "civil wars" are building in Lebanon and Palestine.

Two more years? For Hilabama?

Not. Good. Idea.

Right now, the polling numbers say that impeachment is hardly as far-fetched as you take it to be.

Beyond WCW, and this movement needs very much to grow beyond any organizational identity(!), the chatter is growing in the face of Bush's refusal to pull back in any essential way from the "agenda".

As comrade Chanders is at Columbia, perhaps he'd be interested in bringing Sunsara and Liam to speak there. I have a sneaking suspicion that at least a few hundred people would show up.

!!! ??? ...

Kicking protest up a notch (or two) isn't the same as adding an extra exclamation mark to the end of the placard.

Call the action, I'll be there.

from DC Indymedia

(DC Indymedia seems to barely exist at this point. There was no build-up for the protest and a feature didn't appear until the next day. WTF?)

The good news is that SDS locals called their first national action convergence. Mike Erwin reports. There's some discussion there too.

Somalia?

No meaning to be confrontational, but don't you believe that your rhetoric is a bit overboard. There is not going to be any war in Somalia with US troops. The Ethopians have already expelled most of the Islamists.

Isn't a bit one-sided to think that it is SOLEY US Imperialism that the Ethopian military works for?

sidenote

US "advisors" traveled in with the Ethiopian troops. US planes have bombed the shit out of sectins of Somalia and it has been declared a "theater of operations."

Bomb a country a few times and its fair to say it's a state of war.

Africa is real, it's not some free for all where bombing is just "whatever."

However much we do know about US bombing and covert ops in Somalia, which is quite a bit – we definitely know that the reality is many times what's been reported.

max

"I appreciate what WCW is doing trying to spearhead an upsurge around impeachment. But I think the question of how different the EFFECTS of its demands end out being from UFPJ's involves a move from protest to resistance."

Just got back from DC, been following the conversation above but have not been able to slip away from work to comment.

I have to say that it feels a little bit like im living on bizarro world, trying to figure out how my friend BM tries to re-package the message of the WCW campaign into something that has not already been said a million times before (all by good and sincere people).

You think people have not been organizing around Impeachment since now? I know several groups (ANSWER being one of the more prominent) that have been doing this since early 2002 for gods sake. Are you telling me this is different because of some organge placards? Am i the only one who finds this argument completely bizarre, especailly coming from such a smart guy as BM?

Organge jump suits? Our friends with Witness Against Torture and other groups have been doing this for two+ years. They straight up went and did a direct action AT GUANTANAMO! I mean really, the assumptions that somehow this is different... i dunno maybe im just not getting the point.

I think this is why the RCP & the WCW decide to "not engange with the left" and instead opt for a strategy of "organizing the unorganized" (which i personally think is completely right on if you are able to fill that void) - but i think they are forced to do this because they patronize everyone else and dont give due to the other work that folks have been doing for years in a really harsh post-9/11 climate.

When i was organizing with college students at NYU (i didnt attend), we did more confrontational direct actions in *1 month* then this WCW campaign has done in nearly two years. We were occupying Clintons offices and embarrased her staff into making Clinton have a one hour sit down meeting with us (i mean whatever not like she is going to change her mind, but you get the point, she has not even offered to have such a sit down with the 9-11 families for peacefull tomorrows).

We were rushing MTV's live TRL show with graffiti stenciled t-shirts, getting covered in rolling stone magazine, leading 1500 person walk-outs (which the pre-WCW front group 'NION' took credit for of course). We did a lock down in the UN general assembly hall while 170+ delegates were debating the Iraq war resolution. We had huge pictures and stories in the New York Times etc etc etc. THOSE THREE ACTIONS WERE ORGANIZED IN THE SPAN OF ONE MONTH!!! (Oct-Nov 2002). Not to mention we didnt have any money or budget that NION/RCP/Refuse & Resist Artist Network could provide.

In 2005 BM was trying to tell us that Sunsara and the WCW had gathered some student conference together with "200 delegates", and that this was a really important event that happened etc etc. Well, where are these people? Where are all these campus chapters/delegates who are have been "raising the stakes"?? Im not holding my breath for Sunsara's next college tour...sorry. You have sneaking suspicion that 200 people will come out to a talk by her? Well i got a bridge in brooklyn i would love to sell you.

When i analyze the WCW and its continued hollow rhetoric along with its consistantly dissapointing 500 person rallies (Was't Oct 5th gonna really escalate shit? like for real this time??), its not because im being sectarian, and its not because im getting sucked into the CP-USA "controlled" UFPJ united front strategy, its because when you looked out over the 100,000-300,000 people on Saturday, you actually saw the sectors in motion that were going to stop this war - steelworkers from pittsburgh, peacegroups from Montana, Inner city youth from Atlanta, tons of new SDS campus chapters, the arab american community from DC, survivors from New Orleans etc.

Compare this to the few hundred kids that came out for the Nov 2nd (2005) and Oct 5 (2006) WCW rallies. When i talked to them (my sister had a bunch of her friends roll with her from her local public high school), they were happy to miss class and put on those shiny neon-green stickers. Of course when i read BM's blog i see that really this protest had a "more proletarian character" and thus the smaller numbers and higher level of rhetoric meant "a step forward". I mean you have to really take a leap of faith to believe some of the logic here.

Im afraid that much of the hollowness (i just dont know what else to call it, but thats what it is) eminating from the WCW campaign is due to this insurrectionary maoist philosophy (something they share with anti-organization insurrectionary anarchists to be sure) that resistance can just happen if you will it to be. It can just happen with one little spark here or there, that the masses will come out of their houses and "break their everyday routines" if they just see or hear something radical happen at some point in time.

Unfortunately for those of us who have to do the much harder work of relationship,community, and network building (instead of life inside the party, out for its personal aims in the so-called name of the masses of course), this kind of theory does not apply to political life inside the US right now, nor will it for the for-seeable future.

Im afraid that other responsibilities will not allow me to engage this conversation to the fullest, but i will be checking in and look forward to what others have to say. Thanks to BM as always for the thoughtful analysis, even when i largely disagree with him, he certainly does it better then most.

Christopher Day

"The Ethopians have already expelled most of the Islamists."

Umm, yeah, right. "Mission Accomplished" and all that. For better or worse, I suspect we'll be hearing some more from the Islamic Courts in Somalia. The Ethiopians don't want to stay and experience the joys of the IED and the African Union is not likely to replace them with a more credible force. In the meantime Mogadishu is reverting back to the Mad Max hellscape it was before the Islamists briefly restored order leading many to wonder "whats so great about being able to go to the movies if you get shot on the way."

I have no special enthusiasm for the Islamists program (or is that "programme"?) but I think declarations of their demise are premature.

Christopher Day

A provocative comment from Max that deserves a response, even if I don't agree with him.

grumble, grumble

Max, we've never met personally, but I know who you are. I'm a WCW organizer here in New York and I'd swear I've read the same general downbeat commentary from you every time we do anything substantial. The same shady math games (tens of thousands nationall on Oct. 5 becomes "500", etc.) mixed with sloppy commentary about what people are even doing. The word prejudice comes to mind, so does tailoring facts to your argument. I don't doubt it's sincere, it's just kind of petty and dumb.

The last time Sunsara spoke at promoted teach-in in New York, at Fordham Law, 150 came with 5 days of pre-planning. The other panelists included John Nichols from The Nation, an activist with the Center for Constitutional Rights' Guantanemo program, Cindy Sheehan and Lt. Watanda's mother.

Please climb out of whatever hole you're in, and stop patronizing people. You think you're building community? If that's what you call it, I'll have to take your word for it since I don't see it in my community.

Sunsara and Liam got dozens of colleges to sign-up within one week of announcing their tour. If you're too cool for that, I'll enjoy reading your reports of the very important "community" work your doing.

I don't know where you got this idea that World Can't Wait isn't dealing with activists or "the left." I don't even understand what your gripe is, I mean besides the obvious fact of those darn reds. I'd love you to join, or not. But your commentary here is lame and ingroupy.

I have a pretty good idea who was going to DC. We brought five buses from New York alone. We are members of UFPJ. NION is a separate organization. They pulled off the Bush Crimes Commission that including some genuinely impressive participation and a legal grounding for impeachment. The RCP had a large presence at the march. So did a few other groups you probably write off as well. Maybe they aren't in "your" community, wherever that is.

Stanley W. Rogouski

There weren't 300,000 people in DC on Saturday. There were 35,000-70,000. Leslie Cagan said 500,000 and the media split the difference and gave her 250,000.

Very strange.

The DC Park Police don't give out estimates any more and there was a lot of out of town media. But anybody at the Washington Post can guess this figures without much trouble. The "Save Darfur" rally last April took up the same amount of space and the press (which is always anxious to give the Save Darfur movement a big sloppy blowjob) said it was 40,000.

I know this is tangential to the point of how these things are organized but I find it fascinating. The media had their narrative (big rally, Jane Fonda, spitting on counterprotesters, some of whom were troops)and just phone it in.

ism schism

The march was six-figures, on the low end. I've been to some 500,000 crowds and this was not that.

+1 on the protest as usual not being enough. Most of my friends didn't want to travel 6 hours to stand in the lawn for a few only to turn around and go back home.

Where's the heat?

+1 on the vets who had something to say!

+1 on the SDS kids who pulled off a real contingent with some ovaries.

+1 on the RCP that was on what seemed like every corner getting out Revolution: -1 on the uniform, -1 on the heavy moralism/complicity rap – the people at this protest are not "complicit", they are doing something. It's condescending and alienating, it ends up being self-righteous and I hope that's not the intention.

+1 on Cagan and UFPJ for the timing of the protest. -1 for fluffing the numbers and subjecting us to Jesse Jackson.

+1 on the weather, with god on our side.

-1 on the anarchists who seem to have evaporated.

Another big +1 for the vets.

I heard a couple different soldiers talk and they really were great. They don't have that flaky activist feel that drives people batty.


my2c: I come out for the big ones, read everybodys propaganda and complain online. Typical UFPJ protest, the government didn't even notice, the communists handed out a whole forest of newspapers, I barely saw a cop all day, I slept on the bus. Back to work.

the burningman

Hey Max, do you want to go back and forth here or on NYC Indymedia where you cut-and-pasted the same response?

I'm leaving work in a minute and then I'm off to the gym. I'll check back in later tonight. For now I'll just ditto ditto what Grumble, Grumble said.

Sometimes it is hard for me to figure out where you're coming from and what you want from people. There's a way you act like this is some competition that's not only unhelpful, it's so completely different from how I see things that I'm kind of at a loss on how to respond.

Do I go back through correcting your numerous factual errors? Crowd counts, politics, people involved?

Should I engage the underlying bitchy tone?

Should I point out that I just helped bring five buses down from NYC alone to the UFPJ march, even when I disagreed with the overall orientation set from the stage?

Should I fill in the dozens of other actions, micro-protests, teach-ins and one-to-one discussions I've had that give me the patience to disregard your cynical take on what we're doing?

Should I, again, point out that World Can't Wait is in fact not the RCP, or that the move to impeach Bush is far, far broader than just the World Can't Wait?

Lordy. I don't know.

One thing I do know, very much for sure: the political poles you use to judge your own position are not the stars in the sky.

Jimmy Higgins

hey, ism schism, you don't have to drag the deity into this (though i'm sure she wouldn't mind if she existed). the weather saturday was a classic case of the reactionaries picking up a rock only to drop it on their own feet. if bush hadn't spent the last six years denying that global warming even exists, we might not have has a lovely 50 degree (fahrenheit)-plus day on which to denounce his sorry ass, making for the largest anti-war demo ever in d.c.--in january...

max

you can reply either place, i dont care. I only posted my comments once on both sites (you did the same thing), it took me a while to write that so i figured i would write it both places.

we obviously dont agree, thats fine. I still am waiting for someone to deal with the content, but wont be suprised if no one does.

Stanley W. Rogouski

Max. I actually agree with a lot (if not most) of your analysis.

And yet I'll continue to support World Can't Wait.

Why?

1.) They're doing more or less the same things you said you were doing in 2002. So why not more of the same.

2.) They tie together a lot of the various threads floating around the anti-war and anti-Bush movements. True, other groups do this. Once again, one more's not going to hurt.

3.) Radical politics isn't a zero sum game. The United States has hundreds of millions of people and only a fraction of a fraction of 1% are organizing around the principles World Can't Wait and you advocate. We need as many groups as possible.

4.) Having WCW engage groups like UFPJ and the unions is probably going to cause more harm than good. True, it's not going to lead to an insurrection but it's better to have parallel groups organizing different people for the same general goals than having them compete for the same usual suspects in New York.

5.) Sunsara's hardly a household name and I don't think she has deep roots in New York or on any college campus. But I've seen her draw more than 200 people a number of times. I'm sure she'll get that many people on any number of campuses.

6.) WCW's insistence on being a HISTORIC GROUP DOING ALL THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME is pretty annoying. True. But so what? I get annoyed all the time. Be annoyed. Suck it up and deal. Just make sure you're actually something.

Yeah, I know none of this makes me a good Communist and you're probably going to label me some kind of reformist liberal pragmatist. Go ahead. But if you do something worth supporting and I know about it, I'll support you too.

Let 1000 Maxs and Sunsaras bloom.

the burningman

I wouldn't be surprised if no one does either, Max. For anyone who has been doing this work, it's a paultry reduction that has much more to do with your a priori ideological assumptions than anything they'd recognize.

You're right that other people have been talking about impeachment, but exactly in the face of what you call "Maoist insurrectionism" – it is, in fact, a legal mechanism under our existing bourgeois constitution, and World Can't Wait is joining in these efforts to put a literal stop to the regime. Now. Urgently. Hear that? Urgently.

Some times are urgent, when people should make personal sacrifices and take those skills and knowledge they've picked up over the years and join this campaign.

|| || ||

The Bush Crimes Commission organized an event that brought everyone from the lawyers representing Gitmo detainees to Janice Karpinski, the former warden of Abu Ghraib to lay the foundation for such an action.

World Can't Wait has been working very closely with the Center for Constitutional Rights, and several congressional reps to try and get this on the table. Maybe you weren't there, but you know – that "activist community" is just one cipher in a very big world.

Instead of "giving up on the left" or however you put it, we haven't been waiting for a so-called consensus to develop among "stake-holders." I don't think that's how breakthroughs happen. Not only is World Can't Wait's door open, we're willing to work with anyone (hear that) who wants to pick it up.

|| || ||

Regarding last October 5: World Can't Wait summed it up as unsuccessful. I disagreed.

I know its hard for you to grasp that other people actually have a diversity of opinion – but I was very surprised at the turnout, which was around 1,500 according to local news broadcasts and my own count (twice). I thought it would be the "hundreds of young people" you belittle, but it was not. It was one of the largest weekday turnouts in years. Again, just because your community sat it out, that doesn't mean they were right to do so, or that your backhanded compliments take one drop away from what was accomplished.

We just finished a national organizers meeting a coupele of weeks ago, right here in New York. There were around 150 DELEGATES. This time they weren't just attendees, from local groups all across the country. As a couple folks you know who were there, ask them.

Underlying all of this:

When you talk about those Pennsylvania steelworkers, etc. – you act like mentioning the name of constituent groups is somehow akin to analyzing their politics.

Several local union provide public support to World Can't Wait (1199/SEIU where we hold our meetings and whose President, Dennis Rivera, has signed the call) and others not so public.

I spoke with folks from the moment I got off my bus, one of several organized by NYC World Can't Wait, and the only responses I got like yours were from people just like you. Cynical activists who are looking to analyze the subtext.

We're not all running game and playing position politics. That you see this so easily explains to me why you take such a consistently belittling approach.

We are changing the terms of this whole fight.

In other words, when I rapped with folks from Kentucky, they didn't have a drop of the cynicism and "activist community" myopia that's all over your analysis. "Drive Bush out? Sign me up."

All day long.

Does World Can't Wait lean a little heavy on the moralizing and "complicity" talk?

I think so, and I argue against it. I don't include it in my own writing, even if I think it's essentially true. The understanding that I can't just stand by, knowing what I know, is why I've managed to maintain my activism through some bumpy years.

We have a diverse movement and organization where such things are hashed out.

You ask how I do it? It's easy. I speak from the heart, Max. And I'm sick of the passivism, activist point-scoring and breathless promotion of movements far away as somehow authentic while some treat revolutionary organizations, and those willing to work with them in comradeship, as some kind of kryptonite.

Well, everything new is old again if you catch my drift.

There were hundreds of activists in DC working with World Can't Wait and that's just a fact. We were all there. We all saw it. It's why you feel obliged to write.

Think they were all RCP? You'd be out of your mind, as they had at least a hundred folks getting out their own literature, which saturated the crowd with the only "life after capitalism" materials most people took home.

You think we're running around in circles spouting rhetoric?

I think we're building a movement that takes the times we live in seriously, that dares to dream out loud and is willing to pick up a fight before "everybody knows."

I wish you'd shake the scales of your eye and get with it, but I know you well enough to respect what you do on its own terms.

You're not the problem, so to speak, even if your attitude is a neat demonstration of the mypopia endemic in some important parts of the movement.

Solidary. Really and always.

Stanley W. Rogouski

I've been looking at photo diaries of the DC protest for the past two days now. There are literally hundreds of them. The Daily Kos has one or two featured DC protest photo diaries per day.

I'd say between 25-50% of the photos posted have some type of World Can't Wait sign or presence in them.

That's a pretty impressive and pretty disciplined distribution of materials.

For example.

https://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/29/11755/2574

At least 6 of these photos have WCW signs in them. And yet there's no debate about WCW as a group.

It's sort of like everybody sees the signs and everybody knows about them but they become background noise in a way.

How do you move beyond it?

Stanley W. Rogouski

I mean look, Max has some valid points.

Take that Kos photo diary. Some disgruntled liberal dem sees a photo of a WCW poster and says "hmm. Let's check out their site." He goes to the WCW site.

https://worldcantwait.net

And what does he do next? He sees an announcement about the protest he's already been too and an agenda a number of other groups seem to support. So he goes "ah. I guess I agree with those people but they're look is a bit weird so maybe I'll support the progessive Dems or After Downing Street or somebody else I know about".

Then he reads about how WCW is an "RCP front" and how the RCP is an evil cult and how they all support Milosovic and he says "uh oh. Sounded good but better stay away".

And why does this happen?

It's because WCW isn't entirely clear on it's relationship with the RCP. It's actually a "spinoff" of the RCP not a "front" of the RCP. It's sort of like The Jeffersons to All in the Family or Law and Order SVU to the original Law and Order. it came out of the original organization then developed its own logic.

Then there's the issue with Bob Avakian. OK. I like his books and his lectures are something I can pass the time with at work when I'm bored but he's not exactly out there leading the movement the way Cindy Sheehan or Dennis Kucinich or Howard Zinn or even Clark Kissinger is. And the explanation "oh the government kills revolutionary communists" is going to sound a bit, ahem, weird to someone not invovled in the RCP for awhile.

So basically WCW and the RCP both have a good line on a lot of things but they tend to scare people away not because they won't be inevitably attacked by people who either are opposed to their programs or just see them as competition but because they don't know how to respond to these attacks. They're too insular, too self enclosed and self enclosing and they won't see things from other mostly sympathetic peoples' point of view.

So what you get is WCW as a basically weak Dosteovskyan doppelganger to a lot of other left/progressive groups, a shadow that people think they can avoid for the "real thing".

And I agree with Max. The "we're making history" rhetoric looks out of touch with reality sometimes.

"We're a plucky little group who has the guts to speak truth to power" would sound better.

brooklyngoil

my two cents. I find the work that wcw is doing pretty inspiring. after taking a 5 plus year break from activism I was looking for something that I could plug into that was relevant, fairly open and doing decent work. It's just that simple. I am not an RCP supporter altho I identify with rev politics. And not to oversimplify it but look, lots of left organizations are doing anti-war work some of them have built organizations around this work. we all know this. I can break down my critique of each and everyone of them. and there is a time and a place for that in the mvmt too. But I also think this was a discussion about the anti-war protest on saturday. In the spirit of what some of BM has suggested. Right now the time is right for getting out there and doing something. UFPJ, ANSWER, Campus groups against the war, WCW -- I think the time is right to pick a grp and do some wk. I don't want to act all united front and forget about all our difference but I would love to move a little bit away from chatting about B.A., the RCP, etc. There have been dicussion threads on this site about the "bigger questions" else where. I am interest in what people want to DO next....

And on that tip I think the things Stanley and Chris Day are suggesting are right on. there is momentum to do more and take our work up a notch, tactically and strategically.

Kris

When the draft starts? THAT'S WHEN MILLIONS WILL MARCH. Seems nobody gives a rats ass about their freedom. (Typical morons...)

Shelly

I believe that WCW needs to be scarring the masses...the people have to wake up and get away from the jingoistic clap trap that the MSM feeds them.If we dont get them out their wal-mart mind set then we might as well give up and join them...is that what you want for yourselves and the bleak future that is right around the bend?

ShineThePath

"I believe that WCW needs to be scarring the masses...the people have to wake up and get away from the jingoistic clap trap that the MSM feeds them."

WCW has already been doing that....it ended up repulsing people as evidence in their videos on their site. Try educating them and struggling with them, scarrring them and yelling in their face that they are complicit with Fascists makes them think that you're no better than a Black Israelite on Times Square...it is at best just funny for them.

the burningman

Plucky? Some of us more than others, Stan.

I think people are scared enough. People still don't get what the Military Commissions Act was, or quite get what's happened with torture – but FEAR itself is the tool of reaction.

How about we help break the spell? Provide people with something the can feel, see, taste, participate in that does more than amp up their anxiety?

These teach-ins and speaking tours and organizational summits are all providing an informational context. They give an opportunity to gather folks together to have something like this conversation in person, with people who don't "indentify" as activists or whatever – and to develop (more) local organization to fight back.

I want to draw people's attention again to the article by Dan Berger and Andy Cornell.

What do folks think about that?

-------

Regarding STP's comment immediately above, perhaps its worth looking at some of the discussion that happened online about "blaming the people." I participated in a discussion at the now moribund Another World Is Possible discussion boards regarding WCW outreach at Hunter College a year and a half ago. STP seems stuck on it, but I think people are learning as they go and from my conversations with quite a few folks, it was a learning moment.

I wasn't a member of World Can't Wait at that point, and I think that was the first real discussion I got into about WCW objectives and methods.

Stanley W. Rogouski

I think people are scared enough. People still don't get what the Military Commissions Act was, or quite get what's happened with torture – but FEAR itself is the tool of reaction.

One thread at NYC Indymedia critized UPFJ for not planning more civil disobedience/direct action.

I remember in the late 1980s/early 1990s, the idea of Civil Disobedience and direction action was a lot less intimidating.

Now I don't think it has much to do with the idea that I'm going to wind up being waterboarded at Gitmo any time soon.

What I do think it has to do with is the overwhelming consensus in the elites (the media, both poltical parties, even some of the elite quasi left institutions) for the war and for domestic repression.

If you remember the elites were split on Central America and Congress was willing to oppose Reagan on some key issues around intevention.

We're not going to see a Boland Amendment. While the elites hate Bush for botching the war. They won't oppose idea of dominating the Middle East.

So the idea of direct action/civil disobedience is a bit like throwing a pebble into the Grand Canyon and waiting for a sound. It's the idea of a lot of court time, missed work days, legal fees that's not likely to have an effect.

It does provide a good spectacle. When Clark Kissinger et al did the civil disobedience at the UN it shut the Indymedia purist trolls up but that's about all it did.

At the same time, the "people" are in conflict with the elites in a way they weren't in the 80s. When some Clintonite pseudo leftist bloggers tried the Michelle Goldberg line of attack on the UPFJ demo (oh they dress funny and all support Milosovic) it caused a shitstorm and they realized they couldn't get away with it. People obviously voted for the end of the war in November and Hillary can't just dodge the issue. The Military Commissions Act has disappeared from the public debate but if you start spying on and harassing white people the way you did in the 1960s, it will come back into the debate. Try to pass a draft and all bets are off.

So the idea of mass protests without direction action isn't necessarily bad but it needs to be tweaked. There needs to be a better sense of theater, more relatively low risk confrontation of large numbers of people against the cops (something like pushing down barricades, for example), more drama on stage. In short, you have to make these mass protests look like places where something *could* happen, even though it won't always necessarily happen. You need a real 500,000 person demo in the Spring (and not just one in Leslie Cagan's head).

ShineThePath

Burningman, I am not stuck on that issue. If it was one episode that occured in the history of WCW..there would have been criticism and people would have moved forward...but acts like this were repeated in lesser degrees through out NYC for a time. I can name a few...if you like. Perhaps it has changed...that is good. But there is still a level of this blame the masses, ridicule them for no being involved.

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